处理情绪，对话马克·布拉克特博士

在这本书里，我提供了一套基于科学研究的工具，帮助你打破限制性的信念，重新掌握人生的主动权。

In this book, I offer a science backed toolkit to help you overcome your limiting beliefs and take control of your life.

你是不是厌倦了总是觉得自己无能为力？

Are you tired of feeling helpless?

这本书带给你的希望，不是让你沉溺于那些曾加诸于你的不幸，而是让你发现并激活内心深处最强大的力量。

This book will offer you hope not by identifying with the worst things that have happened to you, but by empowering you to tap into the best that is within you.

《超越自我》这本书在所有购书平台都能买到。

Rise Above is available wherever you get your books.

如果你是一名个人教练，想把你的辅导水平提升到新高度，

Are you a personal coach looking to take your coaching to the next level?

我还想告诉你，‘自我实现教练基础训练’——为期三天的沉浸式教练培训，因为反响热烈，现在再次开放了。

I'm also excited to tell you that our Foundations of Self Actualization Coaching, three Day Immersive Experience for Coaches is backed by popular demand.

‘自我实现教练基础训练’这门课程，旨在通过提供科学验证的工具和洞见，帮助你更有效地引导客户释放他们独特的创造力。

Foundations of Self Actualization Coaching is a course offered to enhance your coaching practice by offering you evidence based tools and insights to equip you to more effectively help your clients unlock their unique creative potential.

想了解更多课程信息或报名，请访问 centerforhumanpotential.com/sac。

You can learn more about the course and register by going to centerforhumanpotential.com/sac.

网址是 centerforhumanpotential.com/sac。

That's centerforhumanpotential.com/sac.k.

好了，我们继续节目。

Now back to the show.

真厉害。

Wow.

共同调节。

Co regulation.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一项非常重要的能力，它也说明了自我调节并不只是发生在我们自己的脑子里。

That's a really important skill, and it it does it does highlight the fact that self regulation just doesn't operate in our own head.

会有一些新的东西产生。

There's something that emerges.

会有一种调节作用自然浮现出来。

There's like a regulation that emerges.

我觉得很多人害怕这样做，是因为他们觉得必须什么都懂。

And I think what happens is that a lot of people are afraid of it because they think they have to be the knower.

其实我不需要完全知道你到底需要什么。

Like, I don't have to know exactly what you need.

我需要掌握多种方法，这样才好根据情况灵活运用。

I have to have, you know, a breadth of strategies because I then I could like pull from them to offer them.

但我觉得最根本的，还是我们之间的关系，以及我如何与你建立连接。

But I think the ultimate form is the relationship that we have and how I connect with you.

有时候，仅仅是有人在你身边，就能起到安抚的作用。

Just sometimes, by the way, the mere presence of someone is a is a is a deactivator.

一种安抚的力量。

A deactivator.

是的。

Yeah.

我叔叔马文对我就是这样。

I mean, that my uncle Marvin was that for me.

每次和他待在一起的时候，我都觉得一切都挺安稳的。

When I'm in his presence when I was in his presence, everything seemed to be okay.

这让我特别惊讶。

Was amazing to me.

但生活中有些人，只要和他们在一起，我就紧张不安，浑身不自在。

Whereas there are other people in my life that when I'm in their presence, I feel completely on edge, uncomfortable.

是啊。

Yeah.

希望我不是这样的人。

Hopefully, that's not me.

不是你。

No.

你跟他们不一样。

You're not one of us.

我懂，我真的明白你的意思。

You know, I know I know what you mean.

有些人一和他们在一起，就像掉进了一个黑洞。

Some some people feel like a like I've like I've entered a black hole.

完全感受不到任何东西。

There's, like, nothing I'm getting.

没有生机，也没有互动。

There's not there's no aliveness of the of the there's no mutuality.

你有没有过这种感觉？

Do do does it can you resonate with that at all?

是的。

Yeah.

确实有这么回事。

There's something about it.

所以呢，我在研究中提到过‘情绪导师’这个概念。

And so so, you know, in my in my research, I talk about Feelings Mentors.

不错。

Nice.

这些导师有一些共同的特点。

And there are characteristics of these mentors.

他们不会轻易评判别人。

They're nonjudgmental.

他们善于倾听，也能表现出理解和同情。

They're good listeners, and they show empathy and compassion.

很多人却恰恰相反，总是带着评判，缺乏同情心，也听不进别人说话。

And a lot of people approach people with a lot of judgment with no compassion and terrible listening skills.

和这样的人在一起，我就觉得特别压抑，根本没法做真实的自己。

And those are the people we tend to like, when I'm around those people, I just don't feel like I don't wanna I can't be my true self.

没错，就是这样。

That's yeah.

问题就在这儿。

There there it is.

你根本没被看见。

You're not seen.

是的

Yeah.

我的研究发现，这一点具有跨文化性。

And what I find in my research this is now cross cultural, by the way.

截至目前，我的研究已经涵盖了大约三万人，结果发现，只有三分之一的人在成长过程中曾有过这样的支持者。

About 30,000 people in my research study at this point, is that only a third of people feel like they had someone like that in their lives when they were growing up.

另外三分之二的人觉得，这样的人在他们成长过程中是缺席的。

Two thirds of people feel like that person was absent from their development.

真的吗。

Wow.

这太令人难过了。

That's really sad.

真没想到。

Wow.

没错。

Exactly.

我们每个人都有点问题。

We're all kind of fucked up.

某种程度上，我不会用那个词，但你说得没错。

In part, I'm not gonna I won't use that term, but I it's in part you're right.

我没说错。

I'm not wrong.

你说得对。

You're not Yeah.

所以我得给它一个明确的定义。

Which is why I have to operationally define it.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

他叫什么来着？

What's what's his name?

纳撒尼尔·布兰登，他写过很多关于自尊的内容。

Nathaniel Brandon who wrote a lot about self esteem.

他经常提到，童年时期缺乏心理上的被看见感——这是他用的词——会严重影响成年后的自尊发展。

He talked a lot about how a lack of psychological visibility, that's a phrase he used in childhood, really helps really contributes to the development of low self esteem as adults.

他把这两者紧密联系在一起，其中确实有道理。

He linked he linked those things very much so, and there's something there that's true.

我很喜欢这个说法。

I like that term a lot.

是的。

Yeah.

我也是。

Me too.

低自尊本质上就是一种不稳定的自尊。

And low low self esteem really is an uncertain self esteem.

你不太确定自己到底是谁，你知道的，而且

You're not sure who who who are you really, you know, and

我是谁？

Who am I?

我的价值在哪里？

What's my worth?

我在世界上存在的意义和价值是什么？

What's my purpose and value in this world?

与此相关的是，斯科特，我的研究发现，成长过程中有导师的人，成年后对生活意义和目标的感受要高出大约百分之二十。

And related to that, Scott, I found in my research that people who have these mentors growing up have about 20% higher purpose and meaning in life as adults.

真的吗？

Really?

没错。

Yep.

你找到了这个数据？

You found that data.

是的。

Yeah.

你是从自己的数据里发现的。

You found that in your own data.

对。

Yeah.

而且这个结果已经被重复验证过了。

And it's been replicated.

我一共用了大约七十个不同的样本。

I this is, like, 70 different samples that I've used.

我想说的是，

And I would say out

别炫耀了。

of Stop showing off.

我没在炫耀。

I'm not doing that.

这百分之九十的样本都得到了重复验证。

90% those 90% of those samples, it's replicated.

哇哦。

Wow.

我的意思是，这个效应真的很大。

I mean, that's a really big effect.

效应量相当可观。

That's a big effect size.

确实如此。

It is.

考虑到样本数量，我能想象得到。

I imagine, given the sample numbers.

天哪。

Holy cow.

明白了。

Okay.

所以这里面确实有非常重要且深刻的东西。

So there's really something really important there and and profound.

我想我们可以一起看看一些实用的技巧，当然可以。

I thought maybe we can go through some of the skills Sure.

这些技巧人们都可以用得上。

That people could use.

你有一个四步法。

You have a four step solution.

感知、暂停、规划、成功。

Sense, stop, strategize, succeed.

这是你的‘关键时刻’方法。

This is your meta moment method.

你能稍微讲讲这个方法吗？

Can you talk a little bit about that method?

对。

Yeah.

多年前，我有个同事，叫罗宾·斯特恩。

So years ago, I have a colleague, her name is Robin Stern.

她也是一位心理学家，专门研究精神操控。

She is also a psychologist and she's an expert at gaslighting.

她写过一本叫《煤气灯效应》的书。

She wrote a book called Gaslight Effect.

但她自己并不会实施精神操控。

But she doesn't do gaslighting.

对，她不是那种操控别人的人。

No, not a gaslighter.

她只是帮助那些被精神操控过的人恢复过来。

She just helps people who have been gaslit and gaslit.

她是一名临床心理学家。

And she's a clinical psychologist.

我是研究型心理学家，虽然也受过一些临床训练，但主要做研究工作。

I'm a research psychologist with some clinical training, but I really focus on research.

她曾经长期接待患者，教他们应对策略，可他们就是用不起来。

And she would see patients for years and teach them strategies and they wouldn't use them.

或者他们会说，这太棒了。

Or they'd say, that's amazing.

他们试了一次，没成功，就再也不做了。

They try it once, it would fail, and then they wouldn't do it again.

我去学校教孩子们这些技巧，结果老师翻白眼，学生也说：打人一拳不是更简单吗？

Was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills, and I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students, know, who would be like be like, it's easier to punch someone in the face.

我后来意识到，中间缺了一环。

And what I realized realized was was there was a missing link missing link.

这个缺失的一环，其实跟做最好的自己有关。当你考虑情绪管理时，除非你相信这么做能带来好结果、对你有好处，否则你不会愿意选择那些更费劲但更有效的策略。

And the missing link goes back to this being one's best self or And so when you think about emotion regulation, like, you're not gonna choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it, if it's gonna be beneficial to you.

说起来容易，比如让自己冷静下来。

Cause it's easy to say like, like, go blank yourself.

对吧？

Right?

这很简单。

It's easy.

多喝一杯啤酒很简单。

It's easy to just drink the extra beer.

装作没看见、压住情绪，遇到烦你的同事直接绕道走，这都很容易。

It's easy to ignore, to suppress, to seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just like walk the other way.

逃避更容易。

Avoidance is easier.

忽视更容易。

Ignoring is easier.

否认更容易。

Denial is easier.

喝酒更容易。

Drinking is easier.

大喊大叫，这都挺容易的。

Yelling, screaming is easy.

但解决复杂问题、冥想，这些都需要花力气。

But complex problem solving, meditating, you know, takes effort.

所以你得意识到，这么做其实对你有好处。

And so you have to realize like, oh, I'm going to benefit from this.

所以我们决定试着玩一玩，探索一下。

And so what we decided to do was play around.

多年来我们一直这么尝试，就是想帮人看清情绪管理的价值。

We've played around with this for years, was a model to help people see the value of emotion regulation.

第一步呢，你得知道自己正在产生某种情绪，对吧？

And so the first step is you got to know you're having a feeling, right?

你得觉察到，身体或心里有什么感觉，有人说了什么，或者外界发生了什么事，正在某种方式上触动你。

You got to be aware that something, there's a sensation in your body and your mind that someone has said something or whatever happened in the world that is activating you in some way or form or another.

我们每个人都有触发点。

And we all have triggers.

明白吗？

Know?

我的意思是，谁都有。

I mean, every one of us does.

你明白吧？

You know?

比如我有个特别明显的例子，跟我工作的地方有关，而且你也去过，所以你也知道。

For example, one of my big things because of where I work, and actually you were there, so you know this too.

我去过。

I was.

我们是在你当我的助教时认识的。

We met when you were my teaching fellow.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's true.

你看这个。

Look at that.

这挺厉害的。

That's pretty cool.

你真的长大了。

You've grown up.

那种感觉，就是一种理所当然的心态。

The, is entitlement.

我知道，我从小在普通的蓝领家庭长大。

Know, and so like I come from very humble blue collar roots.

我父亲是修空调的。

My father was an air conditioning repairman.

我妈妈做过各种秘书工作，干过不少活儿。

My mom had various jobs as a secretary, different things.

现在我在这所大学里，总有学生跟我说：‘布雷克特教授，我有个问题，但我不确定您能不能答上来。’

And here I am at this university where, I get students who are like, Professor Brackett, I've got a question, but I'm not really sure you're going to know the answer.

我心里想的是：就算我答不上来，我还是要给你的论文打分。

And my internal self in my brain is like, I may not know the answer, but I'm going to grade your paper.

我的意思是，这让我特别有感触。

My point is that it's like activating for me.

我想说，是谁把你养大的？

I want to say something like, raised you?

我真的想好好回击这些孩子。

I want to really go back at these kids.

而我偏偏是情绪智力这门课的教授。

And of course, I'm the professor of emotional intelligence.

于是我停下来，深吸一口气。

So I stop, I take my breath.

然后我想，马克，最好的你会怎么回应这种情况？

And I think, Marc, how would the best version of yourself respond to this?

那个情绪大师，那个情绪智力中心的负责人，会怎么明智地处理这件事？

Would the Feelings Master, how would, you know, the director of the Center for Freaking Emotional Intelligence use this information wisely?

马克·布拉克特会怎么做？

What would Marc Brackett do?

对。

Yeah.

那马尔克会怎么做？

WWMBD?

但当你能冷静下来，把心态转到那种超级英雄模式、总监模式，或者任何属于你的那个最佳自我状态时，你就能想出好得多的主意。

And it's amazing, though, when you can lower the temperature and shift your mindset to this kind of superhero self or director self or whatever that self is for you, you come up with a lot better ideas.

所以通常，当我遇到那种优越感的问题时，我会说：我其实很好奇。

So usually, like, when I have that entitlement issue, I just say things like, I'm really curious.

你为什么会这么问？

What made you ask the question that way?

然后突然间，哦，我不是在报复，而是在好奇，同时也很坚定。

And then all of a sudden, oh, you know, I'm not being retaliatory, but I'm being curious and I'm being firm.

明白了。

Okay.

我发现这套方法在我自己的家庭生活中也很管用，因为我的婚姻挺好的。

And I find it works well for my own family life because, I'm in a good marriage.

我有个丈夫。

I have a husband.

我们在一起三十年了，但他是个艺术家。

We've been together for thirty years, but he's an artist.

我是搞学术的。

I'm an academic.

我们俩其实没什么共同点。

And we don't have a lot in common.

所以我还是像导演、制片人那样，喜欢事情有条不紊。

So I'm still like director, producer, you know, I like things in order.

我的日程表安排得井井有条。

I'm very I have a calendar that's perfectly organized.

可我嫁给了一个做事完全不是这样的艺术家。

And I live an artist who doesn't operate that way.

所以我一直在练习，因为总会不自觉地以为，对方的脑子跟我一样。

And so, I'm practicing this a lot because it's like, have an expectation that this person has the same brain as I do.

但其实并不是这样。

And it's not that way.

再说回控制欲的问题，如果事情都按我的想法来，你一听到我说，就马上去做，事情早就搞定了，诸如此类的。

And again, going back to control, like, if it were the way I'd like it to be, you'd do this when I say you'd it, and we'd have this accomplished and blah blah blah blah blah.

但现实往往不是这样。

And it doesn't always work out that way.

以前我总是为此特别烦躁。

So I used to just, like, it.

后来我想通了，首先，Marc，你根本控制不了他的思维方式。

Then I decided, like, first, Marc, you have no control over this guy's brain.

他就是这样的人，而且你根本不会喜欢一个和你一模一样的人——毕竟，你自己都受不了那样的人。

This is the way he operates, and you wouldn't be attracted to someone who was like you anyway because you can't even stand yourself.

这太搞笑了。

That's hilarious.

所以，拥有这样一位富有创造力的伴侣，其实有很多好处。

And so there's a lot of benefits to having this creative partner.

我真需要这样的关系。

I need that.

所以今天你进门之前，回到家，面对一屋子乱糟糟的情况，你打算以什么样的状态出现？

And so before you enter the door today, you come home and enter into the chaos or not, how are you going to show up?

我进家门之前，都会先启动‘马克，情绪大师导师’模式。

I activate Mark the Feelings Master Mentor before I walk in the house.

这样一来，不管什么期待落空了，或者发生什么事，我都能应对得来。

And then no matter what expectation wasn't met or whatever happens, I'm able to manage it.

也不是每次都行。

Not always.

我也没那么完美。

I'm not perfect.

但我想说的是，这至少是一个步骤。

Just but my point is here that it's a step.

我们在这儿讨论的，其实就是你得留意当下发生了什么。

Like, the the what you're what we're talking about here is that you notice what's going on.

你也可以提前察觉，主动去应对。

You can be preventative too and proactive about it.

你深吸一口气，让自己冷静下来。

You take that breath to deactivate your system.

你看到的是那个最好的自己。

You see your best self best self.

然后你就能制定策略，以符合你价值观的方式行动，从而获得理想的结果。

And then you can strategize and act in a way that aligns with your values to achieve a great outcome.

我真的很喜欢这一点。

So I really, really like that.

我的问题是，你的策略会不会是——干脆别那么冷静？

And my my question is, can your strategy can you decide the best strategy for you is is to is to not be so calm?

我总觉得，一说到最好的自己，大家就只会讲善良啊、温柔啊，全是些无聊透顶的东西。

I I just I find that that whenever people talk about their best self, they it just always goes back to, like, kindness and all the fucking boring shit.

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

我开玩笑的。

I'm joking.

但是呢，

But, like,

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

你从来都没听过有人会说，我先做个反方观点提一下。

And it's like you never hear someone say like, just wanna play devil's advocate for a second.

没关系。

That's okay.

也许现在展现的并不是我最好的一面，我可能

And this might not be my best self coming out right now, and I may

我能承受。

I can handle it.

够了。

Say enough.

我喜欢这个，马克。

I love that, Marc.

但我心里确实有一部分非常看重诚实，我觉得那才是我最好的一面。

But but but I but there's a part of me that really values and thinks that my my part of my best self is honesty.

是的。

Yeah.

这世界上有太多虚伪的东西了。

And there's so much bullshit in this world.

我不觉得每件事都非得用善意来对待。

And I don't think every single thing has to be kindness.

每

Every

一秒钟。

freaking second.

顺便说一下，就是这个。

That, by the way.

我想听听你对这个的看法。

And I wanna hear your thoughts on that.

对。

Yeah.

我想听听你对这个的看法。

I wanna hear your thoughts on that.

所以有时候，真相，你可能会说，真相和善意总能兼顾。

So sometimes truth so you would say you can always integrate truth and kindness.

你大概会这么说吧，对吧？

You would say something like that probably, like Yes.

你会说，在追求真相的时候，从来不需要牺牲善意。

You you would say you never have to sacrifice kindness in the service of truth.

你真的是这么想的吗？

Is that what you would say?

我确实这么认为。

I do believe that.

我觉得你没必要那样做。

Don't think you have

这可能取决于你怎么定义‘善良’这个词。

Maybe it depends how you define the word kindness.

你没必要用强硬手段去让人接受你的观点。

Well, I don't think you have to pummel someone to get your message across.

没错。

And so Sure.

我觉得，就拿我们现在这个社会来说，如果你是少数群体，生活会更艰难。

And I think that, you know, if you are someone, for example, in our society right now, at present, if you are of minority status, life is tougher for you.

我觉得，对遭受种族歧视的人说‘你别激动’，这根本不对。

And I don't think that telling someone who is being who is a victim of racism to, like, be calm is the right thing.

这本身就是一种不公。

I think that's an injustice right there.

我觉得我们得支持人们勇敢表达，清楚地讲出自己的想法。

I think we have to support people in being assertive and really being clear.

你刚才那话真的不合适。

Like, what you said is not cool.

有时候，我们最好的状态就是为自己、也为别人挺身而出。

And I think sometimes our best selves, you know, stands up for ourselves and stands up for other people.

当我目睹这些事，甚至我自己也这么做过时，我都会尽量不说‘没事的’这种话。

When I witnessed and I've done this, I try my best to not be like, everything's okay.

不，这事儿根本就不能算没事。

Like, let's it's not okay.

你刚才那话真的不合适。

Like, what you said is not cool.

我不用非得揍你一顿，再让你滚去反省自己。

I don't have to punch you in the face and tell you to go blank yourself.

但我确实得清清楚楚、明明白白地把话说出来。

I do have to say it with with a lot of clarity.

明白吗？

Know?

听好了。

Listen.

这话说得不合适。

That's not cool.

现在这样行不通。

That's not working right now.

你刚才说的那番话真的很不当，也没帮助，我必须得打断你。

And what you just said really was inappropriate and unhelpful, and I needed to stop.

真的吗？

Really?

你是在说我的观点吗？

You talking about my point?

不是。

No.

我刚才一直在装样子。

I've been trying to act for a minute.

有效果吗？

Did it work?

看着像是

It looked

好像有效果。

like it worked.

没有。

No.

挺好的。

Was good.

真的挺好的。

It was good.

没有。

No.

我明白你的意思，不过我觉得我其实想表达的是另一点，不是所有事情都关乎公平与正义。

I I do hear what you're saying, and and I and I think I'm making a little bit of a different point, you know, because not everything is about injustice and justice.

这只是一个例子。

That's just one example.

而且确实如此。

And yeah.

这确实是个很好的例子。

And that's a it's a good example for sure.

没错。

Yeah.

最近我一直在练习‘认同式回应’，就是即兴表演里的那种技巧。

I've been practicing the art of yes, end lately, the improv thing.

当然。

Sure.

因为我现在正和第二城市即兴剧团合作一个项目。

Because I'm I'm working on a project right now with Second City improv.

太棒了。

Cool.

我们正试着通过一味附和来促进世界和平。

We're trying to, like, create world peace through yes, ending.

当然了。

So definitely.

没错，那确实是个很好的例子。

So, yes, that was that was a really good example.

但有时候，人们会说一些不真实的话。

But, you know, sometimes, people say things that aren't true.

如果你指出真相，反而会伤他们的心。

And if you if you point out what the truth is, it hurts their feelings.

那遇到这种情况，你该怎么办呢？

And so, you know, what do you do about that, you know, situation?

嗯，你这下可是打开一个大话题了。

Well, I get this that's a big box that you just opened.

所以呢

And so

我觉得这值得聊聊。

It's worth talking about, I think.

确实如此。

It is.

我认为这正是最出色的共同调节方式。

And I think that's the ultimate form of masterful co regulation.

哦，这挺有意思的。

Oh, that's cool.

我明白了。

I see.

我觉得在友谊和人际关系中，有个挺有意思的现象——我交朋友是根据不同的需求来的。

And so I think what's interesting is in friendships and relationships, see and I have different friends for different purposes.

坦白说，有一件事我一直觉得挺难的，就是我的职业生涯还算顺利。

One of the things that I find difficult just to be, since we're talking frankly here, is that I've been blessed in my career.

我觉得自己特别幸运，能写书，还写了两本，到处去讲，又在大学里带个中心。

I feel very lucky to have like the ability to write a book and write two books and, you know, run around talking about it and lead a center at the university.

但并不是所有人都为我高兴，你知道吧？

But not everybody's happy for me, you know?

周围有不少人，现在就盼着我出事，想把我拉下来。

There are a lot of people socially that, in the society that like right now would like to take me down.

真的吗？

Really?

真的吗？

We really?

那当然了。

Oh, for sure.

肯定有人会嫉妒你，或者觉得你做的事根本不对——我相信很多人都有过这种经历。

There is either there's Like in people I'm sure have experienced this, people who envy you or people who just think, like, what you do is, like, not the right thing.

我在洗脑别人。

I'm brainwashing people.

你真是个正能量的人，马克。

You're such a force for good, Marc.

我是说，有些人觉得我是在搞社会工程。

I'm saying you know, but some people think I'm a social engineer.

我刚才也想到这一点。

That recurred to me.

确实如此。

Yeah.

我想说的是，尤其是在亲密关系里，你根本没法开诚布公地谈，我觉得这没错。

But my point about that is, especially in close relationships, like, you can't have an honest conversation I mean, I think just That's right.

没错。

That's right.

我现在脑子里老在想关于恋爱关系的事。

Know why my brain is going to in terms of like romantic relationships now.

很多情侣最后分手，就是因为性生活不如以前了。

Like, people's couples ships fall apart because the sex is not as good as it used to be.

你没法分享那些你本来想说的好消息，比如你遇到了什么好事，但又怕说得太多，伴侣会觉得自己不够好，因为还没达成自己的目标。

You can't share the news that you feel you want to share about maybe your whatever, something positive happened, but you feel like if you talk about that too much, your partner's going to feel bad about themselves because they haven't achieved their thing.

我觉得，如果我们连表达内心感受的方式都找不到，那真的不行。比如我有个特别要好的朋友，真的特别亲近。

And I think if we can't find ways to have open communication with people around the feelings that we're having, like if I have a close, like a really good friend who you know, I have a really close friend.

我父亲去世后，她打电话给我助理，说：你去Marc办公室告诉他，我爱你。

My father died, called my assistant and she said, I need you to go into Marc's office and tell him I love him.

我当时觉得这事儿挺怪的。

Now I thought that was weird.

我们可是认识三十年的朋友了。

I'm like, this is a friend of mine for like thirty years.

你居然让助理转达这种话？因为我和这个人关系够铁，沟通起来不拘束，我就直接打电话过去，说：嘿，你别开玩笑了。

You're calling my assistant to tell her to tell me that you love me like And so because of my relationship with the person, because I was comfortable, in terms of how I could communicate it, I just picked up the phone and I said, Hey, blank.

你这话说得也太离谱了吧。

You know, like, You gotta be kidding me.

你懂我的意思吧。

You know?

她说，我只是不想打扰你。

And she's like, I just didn't want to bother you.

我以为你正处在父亲刚去世的悲痛中。

I figured that you were in the height of the moment with your father just passing.

我只是想让你知道，我在乎你。

I just want you to know that I cared.

我对她说，你该更了解我才对。

And I said, you know me better than that.

拜托了。

Like, come on.

我们这么亲近，你直接叫我接电话不就行了。

We are close enough that you could just say like, put Marc on the phone.

她说，你说得对。

And she's like, you know, you're right.

其实是我自己心里没底，那时候真不知道该跟你说什么。

She was, with my own insecurity, I just didn't know what to say to you at that moment.

我感觉更安心，也更自在了。

I felt safer and more comfortable.

我说，这我能理解。

And I said, understandable.

我想跟你说的重点是，情绪调节这件事跟你没关系。

I think the point of this what I'm sharing with you is that the co regulation piece is not about you.

在我父亲去世、我感到迷茫的时候，关键是要走出自己的舒适区，去体会对方真正需要什么，怎样才能最好地支持他。

In the in the scenario where my father has died and I'm feeling lost, it's about getting out of your own comfort zone to to to understand and figure out what are the what are the needs of the other person and how can I be most supportive to them?

而不是只考虑你自己那一刻是否舒服。

Not necessarily what's most comfortable for you in that moment.

在开口之前，真的值得好好想清楚。

Think that it's really valuable to think that through before you open your mouth about something.

这样做值得吗？

Is it going to be worth it?

是的。

Yeah.

你明白吧？

You know?

我不确定。

I no.

我觉得这真的很有道理。

I think that was really sensible.

你经常提到要和最好的自己保持一致，那个章节是我最喜欢的。

You you talk a lot about being in alignment with your best self, and that was my favorite chapter.

就是‘最好的自己’那一章。

It was the best self chapter.

我的回应是否符合最好的自己？

Was my response true to my best self?

它帮我实现了关系目标吗？还是我需要再多练习这个方法？

Did it help me achieve my relationship goals, or do I need more practice with this strategy?

也许我该换一个更有帮助的方法。

Perhaps I need to replace this strategy with a more helpful one.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你能一直保持这种状态，我能看到你生活中真正发生积极的变化。

And, man, if you're constantly getting in touch with that, I can see really good things happening in your life.

我觉得要做到这一点，需要一定的觉察力，不然很容易陷入自动模式。

I think there's a certain level of mindfulness required to do that so you don't get caught in kind of this automatic mode.

对吧？

Right?

确实如此。

There is.

我觉得这本书之所以有现在的样子，是因为疫情来了，这点我们都清楚。

And I think this is why What happened in terms of this book was that the pandemic hit, as we all know.

我当时就想，马克，你明明有情绪导师的资源。

And I thought, Marc, really, like, you have the Feelings mentor.

你肯定能把这个做得很好。

You know, you're going to be great at this.

头几个月我搞得一团糟。

And I did terrible for the first few months.

我简直被压得喘不过气。

I got really overwhelmed.

我害怕了，这也很正常。

I got scared, which is justifiable.

对吧？

Right?

那真是个特别的时期。

It was a weird moment.

我的关系也受到了影响。

My relationship suffered.

我开始吃得很不健康。

I started eating really unhealthy.

我再也不锻炼了。

I stopped exercising.

就是那种，唉，烦死了。

Was kind of like, ugh.

然后别人还说，有男人打电话给我，说真不敢相信我得在家上班。

And then people were like, I had guys calling me saying like, I can't, I can't believe I have to work from home.

我成了我孩子的技术协调员。

I'm my, I'm my kid's tech coordinator.

现在我整天都和我妻子待在一起。

I'm my, now I'm like with my wife all day long.

我可不习惯这样。

I'm, you know, I'm not used to that.

我和伴侣整天待在一起。

I'm with my partner.

你知道，大家都彻底乱了套。

I'm with, you know, like people just became people really lost it.

然后我就开始研究，要是早知道该怎么做就好了。

And then I started doing all this research on like, well, what would you have hoped to have known how to do?

这本书的灵感就来自这里。

And that's kind of where this book came from.

我在情绪调节方面意识到，大家通常把它当成一件事，比如深呼吸一下。

And what I realized in terms of emotion regulation is that we tend to think of it as like one thing, you take a deep breath.

我深呼吸之后，反而更清楚自己为啥讨厌你了。

I could take a deep breath and then have even more clarity why I hate you.

对吧？

Right?

所以深呼吸是必要的，但远远不够。

And so it's a necessary but insufficient strategy.

没错。

Right.

我们总是陷入一种误区，觉得人人都深呼吸就行，呼吸确实有帮助，但绝不是万能解法。

So I think we get caught up in everybody takes a deep breath and yes, breathing helps, but it's not the be all end all.

另外还有认知层面的方法。

And then there's cognitive strategies.

但有时候我明明提醒自己要冷静处理，Marc，别跟人较劲，结果还是没忍住？

But sometimes I can I try, Marc, take the high road, Marc, take the high road, and I don't take the high road?

还有人际关系方面的策略。

Then there's relationship strategies.

比如和那些能给你正能量的人待在一起，有个可以倾诉、给你建议的对象。

There's, you know, being with people that lift you up, helping you know, having a sounding board.

你就不能给我点想法，聊聊这事该怎么看？

Like, can you just give me some thoughts or ideas about this?

另外还有很多其他因素，我管它叫情绪管理的‘预算’——也就是睡眠、饮食和运动，这些都属于预防性的措施。

But then there's a whole bunch of other stuff like, you know, I call it your emotion regulation budget, which is is, you know, your sleep your nutrition, and your physical activity because that's more preventative.

我知道只要昨晚没睡好，第二天早上我就特别容易烦躁。

I know that when I don't get a good night's sleep, I'm more irritable in the morning.

只要动一动，身体里的化学物质就变了，人也变得温和、好相处了。

I do physical activity, all my neurochemicals are different and I'm a kinder, easier person.

说到底，事情就是这么回事。

You know, it just is what it is.

所以我跟你们说这些，是想让你们明白，具体怎么做这些事，你们可以去深入了解。

And so my point of telling you all this is that and, obviously, you have to kind of get into the depths of how to do all these things, which you can learn about.

但这些方法都是必不可少的。

But, like, they're all needed.

有时候，面对一种情绪，你会同时用上所有这些办法。

Sometimes you use all of them to deal with one emotion.

比如在机场，空乘人员或者广播里说：‘我们本来以为今晚能起飞，但现在不行了。’

So at the airport, when the flight the flight attendant you know, the person on the intercom says, like, we thought we were gonna take off tonight, but we're not.

非常抱歉，各位。

Sorry, everybody.

你心里简直想炸了。

And you wanna go, like, become a lunatic.

先深呼吸，然后马上打电话。

First, you take a deep breath, then you make the phone call.

我明天要讲的演讲要错过了。

I'm gonna miss the talk that I'm supposed to give tomorrow.

然后你就想，这简直不敢相信。

And you then you're like, I can't believe this.

这可关系到我的名声。

This is my reputation at stake.

接着你又打电话给其他人问，你觉得我该怎么办？

And then you call someone else to say, like, what do you think I should do?

我能不能在线上完成？

Should I try to do it virtually?

要不就随便应付一下吧。

Do I just whatever.

然后你得做个计划，比如今晚住哪儿？

And then you need to make a plan, like, where am I staying tonight?

去酒店的路上，你开始对自己发火，说：马克，你现在的生活就是这样。

And then on your way to the hotel room, you start yelling at yourself and you say, Marc, like, this is your life right now.

你看吧，今晚你最多也就看看电视了。

Look, you're gonna go watch you can get to watch TV tonight.

你懂的。

You know?

这其实是一大堆你为了应对沮丧或愤怒而做的事情。

And it's like a whole bunch of stuff you've done to deal with the frustration or the anger.

这样说你能明白吗？

Does that make sense?

是的。

Yeah.

当然了。

Oh, yeah.

对。

Yeah.

完全说得通。

Totally makes sense.

你的书里有很多应对这类问题的绝佳方法。

I mean, your book has so many great strategies for dealing with that kind of stuff.

而且不仅如此，还要意识到你现在和理想中的自己之间存在的差距。

And not only that, but just being mindful of this gap you have between where you are now and your best self and where you wanna be.

你那些填空练习我特别喜欢。

You have these fill in the blanks, which I really like.

我希望自己是这样的人，也希望别人眼中的我是这样的人——你的角色是什么？

I wanna see myself as someone who is I want other people to know me as someone who is What is your role?

这些其实都在说明身份认同的重要性。

A lot of that speaks to the value of identity.

我知道你之前讲到‘情绪大师’的时候其实不太喜欢这个词，但你的意思我懂。

And I know that was your point when you were talking about the master, the emotion master, even though you hated it.

你还是提到，把‘情绪大师’当作自己身份的一部分，其实挺好的。

There was still something nice you said about having that as part of your identity.

我真的也希望，这种特质能成为我身份的一部分。

And I really you know, I want that to be part of my identity too.

就像那种能掌控情绪、几乎能应对任何情况的人。

It's like someone who can emotionally regulate, you know, and can almost, I wanna say, handle any situation.

几个月前，我搬回纽约之前，最害怕的事真的发生了。

My my worst fear happened a couple months ago before I moved back to New York.

在圣莫尼卡的那栋楼里，我每天都很担心会困在电梯里。

Every single day in my building in Santa Monica, my my I I would fear getting stuck in the elevator.

它就是个

It's a

电梯特别小，我甚至拿秒表计时，上下一趟都算得清清楚楚，确认一切正常才放心。

really tiny elevator and I would even, like, time I have to stopwatch and I would time it going up and down until I know that was fine everything was fine.

十秒钟，我知道自己肯定能出来。

You know, ten seconds, I know I'll be out.

你懂的吧？

You know?

搬走前一天，我走进电梯，门一关，电梯却不动了。

And the day before I moved back, I walk in the elevator, it closes and doesn't move.

我心想：你开玩笑吧？

And I'm like, are you kidding me?

我当时就想，你开玩笑吧？

I was like, are you kidding me?

就在前一天。

The day before.

你懂的？

You know?

这简直是我最怕的事了。

This is like my worst fear.

但出乎意料的是，我居然挺平静的。

And, yeah, I surprisingly was calm.

我的意思是，我根本没想到会这样。

Like, I mean, I didn't see that coming.

但有时候，你真不知道自己能有多坚强，直到真正经历那一刻。

But sometimes sometimes you really don't know just how how much you can handle something until you actually experience

我觉得我们比大多数人以为的要坚强。

I think than most people think we are.

但你提到一个很好的观点，比如你害怕坐电梯，担心它会出故障，或者你面临公开演讲的挑战，不管是什么情况。

But you're bringing up a good point, which is that if nervous about, for example, getting in the elevator because you think it might break down, or let's say you're in public speaking challenge or whatever it could be.

是的。

Yeah.

你作为老师，要去和家长开会，对方可能因为孩子成绩差而责备你；或者同事要给另一位同事提反馈，这些都会让人紧张。

You're nervous about if you're a teacher going into the meeting with the parent who's gonna, like, berate you for their kid's bad grades or a colleague who's gotta go give a kid another colleague feedback.

面对这些情况，我们其实可以做很多准备来应对。

There's a lot of that we can do to be prepared for that.

对。

Yeah.

这就像是‘如果……那么……’的预演。

You know, it's like kind of the if then work.

你懂的。

You know?

当你身处那种会议时，你会有什么感受？你还记得很多年前，我作为教授，不得不给某人提非常艰难的反馈，关于他们写作质量的问题吗？

How am I gonna feel when I'm in that meeting with my I you remember years ago I had to give someone very difficult feedback about the quality of their writing as a professor.

明白。

Know.

还记得写那么多论文吗？

Remember writing all those papers?

你当时的导师可能挺挑剔的，也可能不是。

You had an advisor that was probably particular or not.

我挺讲究的，尤其是语法方面。

I'm pretty particular, especially around grammar.

这真让我抓狂，你攻读博士学位，结果光改语法错误。

It really drives me You're getting a PhD in just grammatical mistakes.

你别开玩笑了。

You got to be kidding

那你怎么在这种情况下面表现出善意呢，马克？

So how do you show kindness there, Marc?

这确实挺难的。

Well, it's tough.

我深吸一口气。

I take my breath.

所以你明白我之前的意思了吧。

So see my point earlier.

不，但我确实会。

No, but I do.

我完全可以拿支红笔批注：这玩意儿简直一塌糊涂，是我读过最差的东西，你还是去另谋高就吧，诸如此类的话。

I could take the red pen and be like, This is a piece of crap and this is the worst thing I've ever read and you should go get a job, you know, blah blah blah.

然后我自己也会觉得特别不舒服。

And like like, I'm gonna feel like crap afterwards.

他们肯定会恨我。

They're gonna hate me.

他们转身就去别处上班，到处跟人说我是个多讨厌的人。

They're gonna go get a job somewhere and tell everybody that I was a jerk.

我不想这样。

Like, I don't want that.

那我该怎么表达我的失望和沮丧，才能让人想更努力、更认真呢？

And so how can I be like, show my disappointment and frustration in a way that motivates the person to want to work harder and be more careful?

我想这就是为什么我们做心理学这一行，是为了帮助人，而不是让人更糟地看待自己。

Think that's why we're in this profession as psychologists, to help people, not to make people feel worse about themselves.

你说得对。

I think you're right.

有时候确实得给人们一点当头棒喝。

Sometimes you do need to give people a wake up call.

我以前也这么做过。

And I have been there.

是的。

Yeah.

那你当时是怎么做的？

But so how'd you do it?

别吊我们胃口啊。

Don't leave us on the edge of our seat here.

你是怎么

How did you

说的呢？我得告诉你，我读了你的论文，真的挺失望的。

phrase What I would say, and I can tell you is that I read your paper and I have to say I was just really disappointed.

里面有不少拼写错误，语法问题也很多。

There were quite a lot of typos and a lot of grammatical mistakes.

我不确定你是不是赶时间。

I'm not sure if you were in a rush.

也不确定你是不是没注意到这些问题。

I'm not sure if it's just something that you're not picking up on.

你是不是嗑药了。

If you were on drugs.

是的。

Yeah.

但也不是没可能。

But it's possible.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

但这实在没法接受。

But it's just not acceptable.

你得明白这一点。

You have to realize that.

我们是要把这些论文发到顶级期刊的，大家自然期待你写得规范一些。

We're trying to publish these papers in top tier journals and, you know, the expectation is that you Right.

你是不是需要有人在交给我之前帮你校对一下？

Do you need someone to proofread before you hand it in to me to review?

不管你需要什么帮助，今后都要确保文章尽量少出错，别有那么多拼写和语法问题。

Whatever you need to do, it's gonna be important for you moving forward to make sure that this is written in a way that is, you know, with as few typos and grammatical errors as possible.

你这么说挺体贴的，但你刚才说为什么体贴？

And that's kind because you didn't why is that kind?

因为你没直接扔掉它们，这才叫体贴。

It's kind because you didn't throw them out.

你还是给了他们一次机会。

You still gave them a second chance.

你让他们知道，他们还有改进的可能。

You still showed them that they have redemption qualities.

你知道的。

You know?

这其实是在帮他们培养一种成长型思维，特别是在写作上。

It's a great it's it's like kind of giving people it's like, you know, instilling a growth mindset in their writing skills.

没错。

Right.

对。

Right.

因为你觉得，我知道你能做得更好。

Because you you're like, I know you can do better.

你知道的。

You know?

或者我期待你能做得更好。

Or I'm hopeful you can do better.

我不确定具体哪里出了问题，但直觉告诉我这一稿有哪里不对劲。

I don't know necessarily, but I have a feeling that something went wrong in this draft.

看在上帝的份上，我真的希望你能进步。

For the love of God, I hope you do better.

没错。

Exactly.

为了你的事业着想。

For the love of your career.

但是马克，要是他们再改五次呢？

But Marc, what if they do it like five more times?

我的意思是，难道就没有一个限度吗？

Mean, is there a point where like an off's enough?

那也是一种坦诚。

Then that's honesty too.